The Write Off
The Write Off
Inner Snob
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‘Inner Snob’ asks the question ‘What should we be writing?’: should stories always have a message? Should we write to market? Should we be trying to break out of literary boxes. Should we be should-ing on ourselves?!? It’s a meaty one! Happy listening and, as always, happy writing!
The Write Off Podcast
Series Two, Episode One:
‘Inner Snob’
TRANSCRIPT
Debs: Hello, I'm Debs,
Hannah: And I'm Hannah, and welcome to The Write Off, a podcast for the everyday writer.
Debs: Even if you don't write every day,
Hannah: Whether you're hoping that what you're working on will one day be a Sunday Times bestseller, or you're simply putting words on the page for the pleasure of it, The Write Off is a podcast for every writer on the journey.
Debs: You might be squeezing your writing time in around multiple jobs, or childcare or even just around the ebbs and flows of your own enthusiasm. But we're here to say: us too.
Hannah: And so that leads us seamlessly onto the subject of today's podcast:
Debs: Welcome to Series Two, Episode 1 of The Write Off! We are so glad to be back, it’s been a while…
Hannah: It really has.
Debs: And also, we’re together in the same room. And it's the first time we've recorded this podcast together in the same room.
Hannah: It's amazing, isn’t it?
Debs: It is absolutely lovely. And it's so nice to see you in the flesh.
Hannah: I know it's so nice to see you in the flesh. And not through a screen.
Debs: You're better in 3d.
Hannah: Am I? You say the nicest things! No, it's so nice to be able to come together physically. I mean, that sounds sexy. I don't mean that. It's just nice to be in a room with your mates again.
Debs: Oh my god. Yeah, this is such a treat. Later, we are going to the pub to have a writing session.
Hannah: I mean, that is just incredible. Imagine finding the time to do that?!
Debs: There will be chips as well.
Hannah: Oh, good.
Yeah, obviously has been a longer break than we expected between recording the first series of the write off and making time to start the second one. But I suppose that is exactly what this podcast is about, isn't it? It’s the struggle to prioritize your writing when there is a hell of a lot of life happening.
*Typewriter keys clatter*
Hannah: So today's episode is going to ask the question, what should we be writing? Does anyone know!?
Debs: And if you know, can you write to me this email? Yeah, no. So I think it's a really good question. What should we be writing? What should I be writing that might sell? What should I be writing that you think other people will be interested in? And what do I want to write? And can they all be the same thing, I guess?
Hannah: Can they be married up? I mean, I think the answer is yes. But the problem, I think, behind the start of every project is that if you are squeezing your writing in, which we discuss all the time on this podcast, you don't want to commit hundreds of hours of your time to something and get to the end of it and feel like it has nowhere to go. But at the same time, you're not in control of that. You don't get to decide that. Yeah. So do you only ever do your passion projects? Or do you reserve some cynicism? And think about what might be marketable?
Debs; It's so depressing having to think along those lines, but it's true. Do you have to consider that? Half of the drive is enjoying what you're doing, seeing that there's a story that you think has legs, and then, like you say, when you got limited time thinking, well, am I wasting my time doing this, if it's not gonna go anywhere, because as much as you enjoy the process, you want it to sell so that you can leave your job and become a writer.
Hannah: Yeah! And I think it's part of the intrusive voice, you know, you go through your phases, where you know, you're in the phase where you love the idea that you've come up with, and you're really flowing and you're really enjoying the process of writing and then you inevitably hit the wall of self doubt. And part well, I can only talk from my own experience, but part of my the intrusive voice that comes into my head when I hit the wall of self doubt, is that voice that says, no one will ever want to read this. Like, no one wants to read this, what nonsense Han.
Debs:
in a way that kind of self doubt is, is part of the process. It can be valuable in that it can, it can make you question the content and help you edit it and you know, try and work out whether it's any good and you know, but at the same time, it can do the complete opposite and tell you that something's not working when it probably is.
Hannah: It can be crippling, I think.
Debs: Yeah. So there's no easy kind of answer, but I guess it's that if you think the initial idea is good, and you're going with that idea, then someone else is gonna think it's good too.
Hannah: Yeah, if you're enjoying it, someone out there as well will enjoy it, right?
Debs 4:56
And also, if you're enjoying it, then you're doing the right thing.
Hannah: Yeah, because, I mean, what is the point of giving your precious time to anything that you don't enjoy? And that's not to say that sometimes the process of writing can't feel like hard work, because I think it's only realistic to say that, yeah, there are definitely days where I know I've got a small window that I should be going to my desk to use to write or revise or do edits, or whatever it is. And the idea of doing it feels like-
Debs: A schlep.
Hannah: It's a schlep. Which feels always feels like a shame, because I'm like, oh, does this mean I'm not a proper writer, because sometimes I don't enjoy it.
Debs: Of course not. I'm sure that everything that someone's creating has its moments where it's just, it's just like, slog and hard work. I think we've discussed this before, it's so hard to keep that enthusiasm that you get from the initial spark of an idea through to completion. I mean, you're writing a novel, so you know, for sure. You're in the shleppy phase. But that doesn't mean that you're wrong to write what you're writing, because it came from somewhere. And it got you enthusiastic. For some reason.
Hannah: I think as well, the big sort of quandary for any writer approaching a project is, where do you pitch yourself? I think there's a big sort of snobbery around what is good? Or what is…
Debs: Literary.
Hannah: Literary. Yeah. And often the stories that we want to tell are, I don't know... I think it's that thing of, like, which camp do you fall into? And do you have to choose one?
Debs:
Oh, it's so sad that there even is a camp.
Hannah: I know! It really fucks me off, actually.
Debs: So like, yeah, “Chick-Lit”, which is horrible.
Hannah: I hate that term.
Debs: It's a bit like rom- no, I guess rom com isn't as bad... but it's that kind of idea that-
Hannah: It's fluffy,
Debs: Yeah, it’s put in a box - It’s for women and by women. And that means that somehow it's not as good.
Hannah: Yeah.
Debs: So I do think it actually probably comes from quite a misogynistic place?
Hannah: Oh it definitely does.
Debs: Whereas if you write something and you’re put in that box, I think there's way more to that writer to begin with, that they that's just one idea they've had and one thing they've chosen, but then they're suddenly in that box forever, but at the same time, that's not to say there's anything wrong with that box.
Hannah: No, that box is great. And I regularly delve into that box. Because I love that box.
Debs: You delve into that box, Hannah!
Hannah: So then, say, for example, you wrote a great - I don’t want to use it, but I'm going to - you wrote a “Chick-Lit” novel, and that was your debut or whatever, then is the expectation that that's what you deliver every time
Debs: Exactly!
Hannah: What then if you wanted to do some sort of, like, really weighty historical fiction. Will you be allowed to do that?
Debs: No. Well, not that I know much about the publishing world, but my instinct is no. Like, you're already on the shelves with a pink fluffy, glittery cover. Okay, maybe not fluffy and glittery at the same time, but you know-
Hannah: Marketing's very creative, these days!
Debs: You've already been marketed as a product, in the publishing world. Because they'll be like: No, you do this, over here. You're not allowed to go over there.
Hannah: Or have you earned your stripes? Have you earned the right by having, like, a debut novel published? I mean, have you earned the right to say like, okay, so you know that I can write a good novel. So I want to, I want to, I want to go over here.
Debs: Yeah.
Hannah: And do this other thing. Again, it's like, these are all things you're not in control of.
Debs: And how much pressure does that then put on people starting out, like us to go, well, this is my first attempt at this properly. Once I go down this route, everything I published has to be in a similar vein.
Hannah: I suppose as well, when you are writing your first thing, you're looking for your, like, original voice. But it is impossible not to have the kind of impressions of other writers that you admire, and that you read regularly. And that you, I guess, you aspire to be as successful as, in your head at the same time when you're writing. So an example of all of this conundrum, is that I started a section of the book that I'm working on, which is in a very, very rough draft stage, and I looked back on it a couple of months later, and I was like, Oh, no, it's too chatty.
Debs: Ok.
Hannah: It's too chatty.
Debs: And what made you think that all of a sudden?
Hannah: My kind of, like, University brain was telling me: Oh, it's a bit... all that's a bit fluffy, though, isn’t it, Hannah? So what I did was, I went back and I rewrote the whole section to be like, weightier. Yeah, I mean, yeah. And then later on, I was like, well, why did I do that?
Debs: Yeah.
Hannah: Because who was I writing it for?
Debs: Yeah. Was it your your inner snob?
Hannah: Yeah. It was my inner snob! I was like, oh, I'm probably tipping over now...
Debs: Yeah, but that chatty style might have been the tone that worked best for that storytelling.
Hannah: Exactly! And also, I hated the fact that something in me censored myself. And we've talked about censorship before, this is not new to this podcast.
Debs: So this is the inner snob censoring us.
Hannah: Yeah. But that's problematic as well, because who am I trying to please? And I think I definitely, whenever I've written anything, I'm definitely trying to please someone. I don't know who this kind of ghost audience is, exactly.
Debs 10:41
It's the panel of the Booker Prize.
*typewriter keys clatter*
Unknown Speaker 10:47
I think there is something to be said for the new wave of fiction that we're seeing that doesn't necessarily worry about conventions of writing, traditional formatting for speech, and I don't know, it's something about breaking free out of a literary box that says, oh, a novel can be written one way.
Debs: Definitely.
Hannah: So Sally Rooney's approach to dialogue. Jessie caves approach to dialogue.
Debs: Milkman as well.
Hannah: Oh, yeah - Anna Burns?
Debs: Yeah, just the completely different approach to style.
Hannah: Yeah.
Debs: There was no, like, punctuation... which I know is a bit out there. But I think it really worked. And yeah, flowed really well.
Hannah: Yeah. So at what point did they decide this is actually how my novel should be presented? You know, then again, it falls prey of itself being put into a box of ‘alternative’. Alternative women writers.
Debs: What if Anna Burns wanted to do Chick-Lit? In inverted commas? What if my next thing was I want this to be really structured? And I want it just to
be romance.
Hannah: Yeah, but then she would be told: that's not what you do.
Debs: Yeah. I mean, I can't imagine it happening. But you know, you just don't know.
Hannah: Well you don’t know, she might be writing that stuff, just under her pseudonym.
Debs: So I'm writing the second short story in a short story collection. And my thing is, it’s quite different in style to the first one. And is that okay?
Hannah: Well, do you know what? I think that is what is so brilliant about short stories. It’s that they allow you to be really playful,
Debs: Yeah.
Hannah: And explore different mediums.
Debs: Yeah.
Hannah: So that you can kind of, yeah, you can really stretch yourself. And you can also do some experimenting?
Debs: Yeah, I just hope that the way that I'm approaching the second one doesn't make me go back - because the first one isn't complete - doesn't make me go back and go: oh, maybe I should tinker with this one.
Hannah: But I think when you are trying to drive a project forward, I think you just have to be blinkered and really, really resist the temptation to want to tinker, because, otherwise, that way madness lies.
Debs: Yeah, again, we go back to this, particularly when you've got limited time.
*typewriter keys clatter*
Hannah: The writing world is a saturated field, it's a saturated place. There's always that thing of like, nothing's original, but then at the same time, you want to bring something that is uniquely yourself to the page.
Debs: Yeah,
Hannah: I think it's that thing of, like, I find myself constantly asking, will this make an impression on someone? Will this make enough of an impression that if, you know, if it was sat on someone's slush pile, would they want to read some more? Or is it just another? I think that is the biggest doubt I have about this draft that I'm working on at the moment? And like, Is this just another one of these stories? And they've been told 1000... 100,000 times? And what about this story that I want to write makes it stand out from anything else that’s been written?
Debs: There's also there's that big fear of you putting all that time in... What if someone literally comes up with a similar idea?!
Hannah: Yeah, but like, I think that is so true, because I... you know, when someone’s got a book coming out and it starts being like, sort of teased on the circuit
Debs: And you’re like - fuck - that’s what I’m writing!
Hannah: Right! And of course, it's not going to be the identical thing to you. And of course, there are, like, multiple books written about the same subject or the same person, even, in the world, you know, you're never going to realize that you've identically duplicated - unless you literally duplicate someone's work, in which case...
Debs: I wrote a pilot script as an idea for teenagers with superpowers on a Council estate and then Misfits came out.
Hannah: I loved Misfits.
Debs: I loved misfits!
Hannah: But I would have loved yours!
Debs: Misfits did it better…
Hannah: No, surely not Debs.
Debs: But, I was gutted, because I spent ages on it in my spare time and you're like, shit, so there was no point. So, you know what, it could have ended up being something completely different, but I just gave up on it because it's like, well, that's just come out, no one's gonna want this.
Hannah: Yeah. But yeah, that idea that you could get to the end of a huge project and then feel as though someone's like pipped you to the post -
Debs: Oh my god, yeah.
Hannah: Someone who's got more time or is working harder than you. There are definitely people out there working a lot harder than me and they're going to get there first.
Debs: Always feel that way. And every kind of life setback makes you go, well, that thing I'm writing is going to take even longer now, and it’s a bit depressing, but I guess you just have to believe in it.
*typewriter keys clatter*
Debs: Also on the kind of theme of ‘what should I be writing?’ Like, do you think as writers, we have a responsibility for our stories to have a message, to teach something?
Hannah: Do we write cautionary tales?
Debs: Exactly. And is that just patronizing then? But like storytelling from its very origins is, you know, a) it's to pass on news and information, but it was to kind of go the boy Cried Wolf. Yeah, then he died, or whatever.
Hannah: Yeah, like, it's lessons, isn't it? It's fable. It's teaching.
Debs: Yeah. But these days, it's political. And is that okay? And or am I thinking I should do that because of my inner snob.
Hannah: Er, what, you should be writing something that teaches, as a polemic, that is passing something forward paying something, rather than just a bit of fluff? That's about…
Debs: That’s right.
Hannah: But, but why do the two things have to be separate?
Debs: So true.
Hannah: Because I would say, look at something like Pride and Prejudice, which, you know, it's like an onion guys! Just peeling away the layers! So there's fun and there's fluff and there's frivolity-
Debs: There’s politics!
Hannah: And there's the dance of sex and relationships and flirtation and marriage. And obviously, it's of its time, but there is also all the undercurrents about what we choose for ourselves as women.
Debs: Yeah.
Hannah: Well, demanding more.
Debs: Yeah. And also, the restraints. That was the political statement, the restraints that were on them, the things they weren't allowed to do, and the fact that Charlotte had to marry that dude, who was awful, because she had no other choice. So it was still a political...You're right. And actually, I think that in telling a story of your time, is to be political, even if you don't choose to, and therefore maybe you don't have to do it in a deliberate way.
Hannah: Yeah, exactly. And also, again, it's like, why does something that delivers a message have to be high minded or have to be important? I use inverted commas here, guys. Like, why? Again, it's sobbery!
Debs: Yeah.
Hannah: You can take a message away from something without it having to be super weighty. Yeah. And also, at the end of the day, your experiences are going to feed into what you write, whether you're trying to avoid it or not.
Debs: You have to write the story that excites you, and that you love the idea of and that, that ignites that passion in you, rather than pre empting what will be a success and what will be good?
Hannah: Yeah,
Debs: From the inner snob,
Hannah: Something worthy?
Debs: Yeah, it's all worthy.
Hannah: Yeah, I think that is the takeaway point. Nothing is more important than anything else, even though we will be told that time and time again.
Debs: Particularly as we, as human beings, are all different. So what is worthy for one reader will be nothing to someone else.
Hannah: Yeah. And again, that is why you should not listen to that in a snob that wants to tell you that the story that you're writing isn't good enough to be on a bookshelf.
Debs: Yeah.
Hannah: Or that you should look for something more high minded.
Debs:
So stop being a snob.
Hannah: Yes. silence that snob. I like it. And this has been such a lovely and interesting chat.
Hannah: Oh, my goodness, and I thought we went quite meaty there, Deb.
Debs: Yeah, what an enjoyable Episode One of Series two. It's great to be back. What are we going to talk about on the next episode, Hannah?
Hannah: I think we're going to talk about the impact of the internet.
Debs: Yes, a lot to cover.
Hannah: Oh, yes.
Debs: Really looking forward to that. Thanks for listening everyone and good luck with your writing.
Hannah: Good luck with your writing.
Hannah: If you have enjoyed today's episode, then please do subscribe rate and reviewers. It helps people to find us and every listen and download to our little podcast really does make a difference and we really do appreciate It.