The Mother-in-law

Do you censor yourself in your writing? Do you worry about who will read it and what they'll think of you? What will your auntie think of the violence? Will your Mother-in-law be shocked by all the sex? This is what we discuss in episode 3. Warning: saucy content. 

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Thank you for listening and good luck with your writing! 

Transcript

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The Write Off Podcast

Series One, Episode 3

‘The Mother In Law’

TRANSCRIPT

Debs: Please accept our apologies for any bangs and scrapes you may here, due to the global pandemic, we’re recording this remotely. Thanks very much and we hope you enjoy.

Debs: Hello, I’m Debs.

Hannah: And I’m Hannah. And welcome to The Write Off, a podcast for the everyday writer,

Debs: Even if you don’t write everyday.

Hannah: Whether you’re hoping that what your working on will one day be a Sunday Times bestseller, or, you’re simply putting words on the page for the pleasure of it, The Write Off is a podcast for every writer on the journey. 

Debs: You might be squeezing your writing time in around multiple jobs, or childcare or even just the ebbs and flows of your own enthusiasm, but we’re here to say: us too.

Hannah: This is a place to connect and share how you’re getting on,

Debs: It’s a place for the story behind your stories.

Hannah: And so that leads us seamlessly on to the subject of today’s podcast: Welcome to Episode Three - The Mother In Law.

Debs: Hello and welcome to episode three of The Write Off! Today’s episode is about whether, when we’re writing, we censor ourselves. So, Hannah, what are your thoughts on the subject of today’s podcast?

Hannah: Well I think I am quite guilty of censorship of myself. I think that I struggle not to, kind of like, read my work and see it through the eyes of the people I imagine reading it. And that's, it’s normally, immediate family...because I don’t know strangers…

Debs: Of course! I think The Mother In Law is the perfect example. Because I guess it’s about wanting to present yourself as the perfect person, even through your characters and your storytelling.

Hannah: Yeah, well, we all want to be in control of how we’re perceived, right? And I think there’s often, when you read a book, I suppose you’re wondering whether or not, or how much, the author has mined from, like, an autobiographical stance. And how much of it is just fiction, because I mean we all do it, we’re all using the experiences that we have on a day to day basis and they work their way into the book or the story or the poem, or whatever it is you’re working on. I think if you read a book, in the back of your mind, you are wondering ‘Oooh, is this, er, does this come from real life?’ So no I think, sometimes, when I’m writing characters, I worry that even though, in my mind, I’m fictionalising something, that a friend or a relative will read it and see themselves and be like ‘How dare she?!’ ‘HOW DARE SHE USE MY LIFE?’ and it’s like...ugh…

Debs: Yeah. Yeah you have to write from real life experience, and therefore you have to use those around you. I think you take different aspects from different people you know, or different stories from different scenarios that you’ve heard about. And there is that fear that somebody is gonna know, when, in fact, I think that is quite unlikely. Unless you were, like, writing about your neighbour and using their name.

Hannah: How did you guess?

Debs: And describing them exactly the same as the way they look and the things that they dress in, I mean it’s unlikely that people are going to know. Because by the time that you have created that character it completely jumps away from it’s origins and comes to life itself.

Hannah: Yeah, definitely. I think if you have a plot that is inspired by real life, even if it’s origins are something tangible that you could point to and go ‘it came from that’, it’s still the workings of your mind - so - it takes on a different shape, doesn’t it? Because you’re feeding it through the lens of yourself.

Debs: Yeah, I don’t know, people might look at something you’ve written with a closer lens if you know them, and they’re, and the people that you know are the people whose opinions you worry about, I guess.

Hannah: It ties into that feeling from our first episode, of owning the statement ‘I am a writer’ - you have to be a bit brazen, and, I am a people pleaser in the very core of myself and I want people to like me, and as a by-product, like whatever it is I produce...but the thing is, you’re not in control of that. It’s not like every single book I ever read, or every single short story anthology I ever pick up I’m like ‘I one percent loved that, completely’ - things speak to people for different reasons, and you can’t be in control of how someone receives your work, it’s like you’ve got to give it over without any idea of how it’s going to be received because you just can’t control that. But I think a lot of the time, when I’m writing, I’m trying to imagine, even as I’m putting it down on the page, how it might be received. I mean, how exhausting is that?

Debs: It’s second guessing what readers might think, and it’s like, actually, you’re not being authentic then, because I do exactly the same and I’m sure many writers do the same, where, when you write something and you imagine how it’s being perceived by anyone other than yourself, then you’re not really using your own voice, you’re using the voice that you think that others want to hear and read about. 

Hannah: Yeah, I think that’s so true. Is it in the complete freedom of disassociating yourself from any outside factors, you know, as your writing - you’re literally just with your characters, inside your story, putting it on the page, because that is where your most authentic voice exists. 

Debs: Yeah, and it’s probably the best advice that we could give or receive about self-censoring your work. Is saying: just write for yourself and nobody else.

Hannah: I think, as well, that for so many years, on the back burner, there has been my writing and a lot of people have been, like, championing me and like ‘come on, get on with it’. So if, one day, this thing that everybody has known that I have been working on for so goddam long actually does go out into the world for anybody to read, the pressure on it is massive! I mean, I’m only talking about a hand full of bloody people who would actually care…

Debs: Yeah, but, they’re the people in your world, so it means the world. 

Hannah: Yeah! And i’m like, god, imagine them ‘right, finally, I’m sitting down to read this thing that Hannah says she’s been working on for years and years,’ and then I can just imagine being, like, ‘oh.’

Debs: Or maybe that’s another things that we’ve got to, um, to do in order to kind of limit how much we censor ourselves, which is to kind of get over ourselves a bit?! I reckon if I wrote something and put it out into the world, more than anything my family would be like ‘Oh I’ve got to read that fucking thing now, I can’t be bothered with that.’ I don’t know...so I guess, somewhere between what you’re saying, and what I’m saying is the truth - which is they will be interested, but they won’t care as much as we do.

Hannah: That is true. Also, I think, generally people just want you to succeed, don't they? It’s easier to imagine the negativity that it is to imagine people being like ‘I loved what you did Deb, I loved what you did Han’ You know what I mean? Because, also, it’s like, you’re not a wanker; “I imagine that this is going to be received with a lot of praise” Like, do you know what I mean? I think there’s also a very Britishness of like kind of apologising before you’ve even, you know: ‘Sorry for this, by the way!’  You know? That’s so British, isn’t it? To just be like; would you mind? Sorry to take up space.

Debs: I think it’s all...I think it’s all tied up in that fear. I think censorship, in general, is about fear. It’s fear of how you’re perceived as we’ve been discussing. It’s fear that you might offend, I guess. It’s all about offense, isn’t it? It’s also fear of how you’re exposing yourself . Maybe my internal monologue is all wrong, but you know the novels that I truly love are very honest - to a brutal degree - of the human condition. But when it’s yourself, it’s a really vulnerable position to be in. 

Hannah: It’s like that thing of, anything that you put definitively put down on the page you have to be able to answer to, don’t you? You’ve made it concrete, by committing it to the page, and therefore you have to be able to stand behind it.

Debs: Yeah, but, I’ve sat in the audience where an author has been grilled for what they have written. It’s actually excruciating, you know, that they’ve created something and put it out into the world and then because of the way that things are set up now - promotional tours and all of that - they genuinely do have to sit there and answer for it. So I guess that’s another thing. I guess it’s easy for me to sit here and say ‘Just write for yourself’, but I’ve never been in a position where I’ve had to promote my own work, and apologise for it.

Hannah: Or justify it,

Debs: Justify it, you know.

Hannah: I think, as well, that justification sometimes make me a bit nervous to write about things that I haven’t had a complete direct experience of. 

Debs: Yeah, so, recently I was considering writing about a person with agoraphobia and even that gives me a bit of fear incase I get it wrong, despite the amount of research that you can do, if you haven’t experienced agoraphobia yourself do you therefore step away from that?

Hannah: Yeah, but it’s like, where’s the line? It’s like if you’re only allowed to write about things that you have literally experienced first-hand, inside of yourself, then that’s very limiting! Because, sometimes, you have an idea for a story, you have an idea for a character and you want to explore something and it’s not going to be something that you have first-hand knowledge about and I think…

Debs: Yeah, it’s like, where’s the line between artistic license and cultural appropriation?

Hannah: Yeah...how can you write authentically about something that you yourself don’t fully understand? I think you have to, sometimes, you have to put yourself inside a character - so to speak…

Debs: You can write about a serial killer and not kill people.

Hannah: I mean, exactly. It’s like the power of the imagination, isn’t it? That’s why we have imaginations - we need to be able to visualise, imagine something, inside your head and try not to imagine your mother in law reading it. 

Debs: So back to the mother in law - what wouldn’t you want your mother in law to read about? 

Hannah: Sex. 

Debs: Yeah, true isn’t it? Because, before your husband, you never had sex.

Hannah: Not a jot.

Debs: You were an innocent and you learnt it all from him, which means that if you’re writing about some BDSM or something...your mother in law will be like ‘Well, where did she learn about that??!’

Hannah: I mean, oh my god, exactly! But then also how many times have you read, like, bad sex in books? You know - because - again -

Debs: Is that people censoring themselves? I have to say that I definitely read the odd Danielle Steele when I was like eleven or twelve and it was always no mess, no fuss, they were as one. They merged. It was extremely romantic.

Hannah: I would actively avoid writing a sex scene, for all the reasons we’ve just talked about. I feel a bit mortified of, like, my granny or my mother in law or my auntie - you know - I’m just like, wow, do they need to know that this came from me? Because it’s not ME, obviously, but it is me speaking in one way, so it’s like-

Debs: With the fear of sounding prudish, I’d only write in sex if it was integral to the plot, if the sex itself was important enough to mention because it represented the relationship in a way that was part of the story, I guess. If it was superfluous to the plot and it was just like to write something kinky, you know, I wouldn’t really be interested really, in writing it, I don’t think. But then I’ve never really done it before…

Hannah: No.

Debs: Not sex, I mean writing about sex! Although, having said that, ok, i’ve got a good example of how writing something quite rude was quite important for that character, and it was back at Uni, I had to write a solo performance piece and it was a Nun basically trapped on desert island. And it was about her self discovery and her self acceptance. And I remember that my tutor at the time saying ‘Why doesn’t she masturbate?’ and I was like ‘Hilarious!’ but then when I actually thought about it, it was like - why doesn't she? This wasn't to be shocking, it was because people masturbate. And so I wrote it in and it literally became the climactic part of the performance.

Hannah: No pun intended.

Debs: No pun intended, exactly. And I guess there is part of me that was prudish and shocked at the initial suggestion, but then there is part of me that is like, I was twenty years old - or whatever - and going back to the thing where I think we censor ourselves in life, I feel like as you progress through life and your professional career and your relationships and the people that you meet, the friendships you make - I feel like, in a way, I have kind of self-censored part of that spirit that was there when I was twenty because it doesn’t fit into every world. Which is absolutely fine - you don’t walk around at work talking about wanking - depends on your work?! 

Hannah: In, like, not wanting to write about sex in case my aunty or mother in law or granny reads it - it’s also condescending of me, because, what, they never had experiences of their own? They aren’t connected to their sexual selves? And, like you said, that prudish element is really interesting - it’s something to, like, unpack - because why don’t we allow ourselves more freedom around that? Am I afraid of my own sexuality? What am I afraid of? You know?

Debs: Exactly - it’s back to fear, isn’t it?

Hannah: It is, and you are absolutely right. Censorship and fear.

Debs: And I guess that’s where you know, you feel a little bit pretentious when you’re presented with a blank screen or a blank page and you can write what you want, to say, ‘Just don’t be afraid!’ But, it’s true - if you let fear hold you back you won’t write what you should be writing and what could be brilliant, authentic and original.

Hannah: Well, not to sound like a bad fridge magnet, but, feel the fear and do it anyway, right?

Debs: Yeah, totally. That’s a great fridge magnet! I want it!

Hannah: Love that fridge magnet. Yeah, I think I am a bit of a wuss. So if I reach a point where I start feeling a bit sort of like, oooooh, I’m going somewhere and I’m not sure I’m in control of it, or I start, you know, imagining it being read by a third party, then I kind of tend to steer away. Rather than face it head on and be like ‘it’s going to be a bit hard to write this.’

Debs: I think on a psychological level as well, it’s like, do you visit those parts of yourself that you find it hard to face in real life? And do you pour them out onto the page? And I guess the answer is yes. 

Hannah: Yeah.

Debs: With the fear of sounding like another bad fridge magnet - you know when they say ‘dance like no-one is watching’ - write like no-one is going to read it!

Hannah: Yeah, I mean, that is the ultimate freedom, right? That’s the ultimate privilege is to be, like, I am going to say whatever the hell I want because I can. And I don’t mean that in a kind of like ‘fuck off to everybody and everything’, I just mean, like, you having the freedom to write your story.

Debs: That should be an exercise that we do - is go, like, right - write something and with absolute truth about something. And imagine that no-one is ever going to read it. And then read it back in a couple of weeks, pretending it’s not from you and think ‘is that good?’

Hannah: Write it as though no one will ever see it.

Debs: Yeah. It’s the fridge magnet.

Hannah: Because, let’s face it, they probably won’t. Oh listen to me, I went so negative! I’m so sorry!

Debs: That’s brilliant! That’s the fridge magnet: ‘Write like no one is going to read it, because they probably won’t...’ 

Hannah: I think as well, I don’t know if you feel this, you know how you talked about being twenty and you feel as though you’ve lost some of the spirit in which you were able to take that piece of advice and put it into your writing?

Debs: Yeah?

Hannah: At twenty...I think, as much as we say, and we’ve talked about this in previous episodes, that life experience feeds into writing, I think you also have less freedom the older you get. This might be bullshit - there’ll be people say here listening who are like ‘oh bullshit, it’s up to you basically,’ but I think when you’re young you can kind of, like, be more cavalier, because there’s fewer responsibilities or, like, fewer people to answer to, do you know what I mean?

Debs: I totally agree. You know, I’m agreeing and I’m not saying, therefore, that’s how we should live our lives, but there are those obstacles there and I think that’s generally what happens when people get a bit older, which is that you’re just a bit more cautious with everything in your life. You have the benefit of experience, and then the fear of, well, the lack of fearlessness.

Debs: The conclusion is, I guess, the fridge magnet - which is in order to write fearlessly you pretend that no one is going to read it. What else do you think we can kind of walk away with?

Hannah: I think we are built with an internal censorship for a reason, it allows you to interact in society - it’s not natural to just say whatever the hell you want to say...in order to have conversations and not just talk about yourself…

Debs: Or not just talk about wanking…

Hannah: Stop talking about wanking debs!!

Debs: No you’re absolutely right, so I guess, again, it’s about finding that balance, isn’t it? Between politeness, acceptability... to truthfulness.

Hannah: I think it’s recognising it when you feel it creeping in, when you feel your self consciousness creeping in, just trying to push it back a little bit. Which is definitely easier said, than done, but I think there’s something liberating in recognising that you are feeling it and then choosing to push through.

Deb: Override it...and yeah, because the difference between trying to function in polite society and writing a novel is that one is a way to get, to kind of interact with your peers and the other is to put creativity out into the world and express yourself, I guess?

Hannah: Yeah.

Debs: So...express yourself everyone!

Hannah: Express yourself, don’t repress yourself.

Debs: That’s why we’re doing this! So...enjoy yourself...express yourself...and masturbate.

Hannah: I think we all know you do.

Debs: Well thanks Hannah, this has been a really enjoyable chat. And I hope those listening have enjoyed it and have got things from it too. What is next week’s podcast about Hannah?

Hannah: Podcast four is going to explore jealousy and what we do when it feel it towards our writing peers. 

Debs: Perfect - I look forward to it. Until then, take care, and good luck with your writing!

Hannah: We just wanted to give a little shout out to our listeners, because we have had some incredible feedback since the podcast has aired, it really does mean the world to us when people get in touch to tell us that the podcast has resonated with them, that some of the themes apply to their writing lives, they have talked about feeling a bit less lonely because they recognise themselves in some of the things that Debs and I have talked about. One lady said that she had been keeping her writing a secret and that calling herself a writer seemed almost ludicrous, and it was really touching for her to share that with us, so we wanted to say thank you for coming with us on the journey - it means a lot to have you here with us, and as always, we’re here to remind you: Us Too.

Hannah: If you did want to come and join us, then you can follow us @thewriteoffpodcast on instagram and @TheWriteOffPod1 on twitter. If you have enjoyed today’s episode then please do subscribe, rate and review us - it helps people to find us and every listen and download to our little podcast really does make a difference and we really do appreciate it.