Writing is hard.

We started The Write Off because we wanted to know there are other writers out there like us; aspiring but, ultimately struggling to prioritise words amongst life's many demands. If you've listened, we hope you've felt a *bit* more encouraged that you're not alone and that you ARE a writer!

In this episode we chat about what we personally find challenging about the writing process. Episode six is the last in series one. But we will be back very soon with more chats over a nice cup of tea. In the meantime, if you have enjoyed this podcast, please subscribe, share, rate and review if you have time. You can also stay in touch via Instagram (@thewriteoffpodcast) or Twitter (@TheWriteOffPod1). 

In the meantime, good luck with your writing! xxx

Transcript

The Write Off Podcast

Series One, Episode 6:

‘Writing is hard’

TRANSCRIPT

Debs: Please accept our apologies for any bangs or scrapes you may hear due to the global pandemic. We're recording this remotely. Thanks very much, and we hope you enjoy.

Debs: Hello, I'm Debs, 

Hannah: And I'm Hannah, and welcome to The Write Off, a podcast for the everyday writer.

Debs: Even if you don't write every day, 

Hannah: Whether you're hoping that what you're working on will one day be a Sunday Times bestseller, or you're simply putting words on the page for the pleasure of it, The Write Off is a podcast for every writer on the journey.

Debs: You might be squeezing your writing time in around multiple jobs, or childcare or even just around the ebbs and flows of your own enthusiasm. But we're here to say: us too. 

Hannah: This is a place to connect and share how you’re getting on.

Debs: It's a space for the story behind your stories. 

Hannah: And so that leads us seamlessly onto the subject of today's podcast:

Debs: Hello, and welcome to episode six: ‘Writing is hard’. So this is the final episode of series, one of The Write Off, we do intend to be back in a few weeks, but for now, we thought it would be good to chat about how difficult writing is...

Hannah: I mean, I suppose the general overview of the entire reason for making this podcast is because one day we spoke on the phone, and we were like: ‘why is writing so hard?!!’

Debs: It had been a long time since we'd really actually chatted to each other about it and we both came away feeling, really, much better,

Hannah: It’s that thing, isn't it, of like, you go to your desk and you write on your own. And just sometimes that can feel quite soul destroying.

Debs: One things that I think that is lacking, if you're a writer, is feedback. Not that you need someone to be like cheerleading you on, but I think that you can lose a gauge on whether you're doing any good at all, you know?

Hannah: It's so true. And, actually, a few writers that I follow on social media have talked about this recently, which is the relief of getting to the stage in your writing where you can collaborate - where like an editor comes on board, or an agent comes on board. And suddenly, it's not just you on your own anymore. I can totally relate to that idea of, just, it no longer being just you anymore, like you know, and obviously like when someone comes along and makes like loads of notes and edits and rips apart your first draft and tells you to put it all back together again then that is also hard, but, in fact, I think it was Emma Jane Unsworth who I was listening to talking about this recently. And she said she absolutely loves it, she loves it when she gets her editor's notes on her stuff. Because then she's like, right, I can do this. I can take this and I can run with it. And it's not just me and the wild voices in my head. And, you know, she's got something to work with from that point. And I know, I think, if you are doing a long form piece of writing, oh my god, it takes a long time!

Debs: It's a long time for you to be sitting there with no one sharing it with you. No one who knows what you're putting down on the page, I guess. So yeah, it totally makes sense that you'd be like, ‘Oh my God’, when someone else reads it. I can imagine if you're not an editor, but you're like a friend or family member to a writer and you read their work, it's probably quite intense to be on the other side of that, if you've been so alone with it for so long.

Hannah: Well I was saying to you the other day that I've got a friend who I've worked with, and he gives really astute notes, and they're great notes, they're great. He gives great edits. But sometimes I dread hearing them, and I can feel quite cross with him. I'm just like, what do you know? If he's saying 'This isn't good enough', or 'you could do this much better'. You know, it's never just as punitive as that, he says what I really need to hear. And then for a few days afterwards, I just go around being like, 'Well, fuck you if you don't like it’.  It always takes me maybe more like a week to settle down and be like, right, get over your ego. And actually, everything he's said is exactly right.

Debs: So Aside from the obvious, which is that we've got no time to write, when you do have time to write, what do you find the most challenging thing about getting words on the page?

Hannah: I think I'm not really a plotter. I never, ever come to anything with a plan, really. The most I ever really do is like, I sometimes write down character names. And I know that they're, they're all connected to each other, but I never really know how. And sometimes I think I would get a lot further if I just tried plotting a bit more. I know that some people out there like to plot the entire thing. And that's how they work. And it's quite methodical. But I'm not sure that would work for me. But sometimes I think, well, maybe if I just even had a vague idea of where it was going, and I'd written it down, so I could follow it like a thread, then I would find it easier, because I also can sort of like jump around all over the place. So sometimes I'm like: chapter one, chapter two, chapter three. And then the next thing I know, I'm like, somewhere else miles away, writing something that's come into my head, and I've got no idea where that's going to come in, or even if it does fit. And then at that point, I feel like I'm in this knot of words, and then I get in a panic, because I'm like, I don't know the way out. 

Debs: I have a similar thing. And I think I think that's quite normal. Unless it's just me and you, you know?! But I think that to write something in a linear way, obviously, would make things easier, because you could then just keep going with the flow. But when you're doing something on such a massive scale, I think that's really hard to do. And your mind does jump to other parts of the story. And I think the problem lies in not being able to see it visually. As a timeline.

Hannah:  I saw a picture once that Maggie O'Farrell posted, and it was of, like, a huge trail of post it notes that literally went around a doorframe. And it was the outline that she was following of her book,

Debs: I think it might just be that reassuring thing of you realizing you're not wasting your time on this, but it's going to be relevant in the end.

Hannah: Yeah, I think that is true. And it's happened to me recently, where I've spent quite a lot of time working on something. And then later on, I'm like, Oh, I don't think this is actually part of the story. I think this is more me kind of like learning who this character is. But then I get that feeling like, Oh, that's a big fat waste of time, because that's 2,500 words!

Debs: But then none of that's a waste of time. Because if it makes a more well rounded character, that's interesting. And if it makes you kind of know that character better, then you will write it better. And we'd probably be amazed by the amount that we don't read, once a novel has been published, that's been put down at some point. It's just an absolute marathon of a task.

Hannah:  Yeah. And you know what, I think, if we're going to talk about writing being hard, I do wonder if I am the right kind of writer to write long form prose. I find it so hard. You know how some people they've just got thousands and thousands and thousands of words. And, actually, the problem they have is like cutting those words down?

Debs: Yeah?

Hannah: Well, I have the opposite problem!

Debs: Flash Fiction? 

Hannah: I love a flash fiction, I do. 

Debs: You know what you could get into is writing haikus.

Hannah: I would love to just be a haiku writer, Deb. And then I would have no worries.

Debs:  Well when was the first time that you said to yourself, I'm going to write a novel. Did you think it was going to be easy peasy? I doubt it?

Hannah:  No, not even a little bit. So I've had to, like, loosen up a bit and be a bit like, well, we've talked about it in the past; that horrible desire to edit before you've even got anything on the page. So I've had to loosen up and be like, you know, yeah, you might feel like your last 500 words was pure bollocks. But it doesn't really matter at this stage. As long as the words are going on the page.

Debs: You might be writing 500 words of shit. But then the 100 words after that might be pure gold. And you wouldn't have gotten to that gold if it wasn't for those 500 words of shite that you had to write in order to get there. Admitting that writing is hard helps, because saying that writing is hard means that you're not saying ‘I'm rubbish’.

Hannah: Yeah, we can sometimes be sat there feeling really insecure and thinking, why am I finding writing - whatever you're writing - whether it's a novel, whether it's short stories, whether it's for the screen, I can be sat there thinking, why am I finding it so hard? I'm supposed to want to do this. I think that's what I hear in my head all the time. I'm supposed to want to do this. So why is it so hard?

Debs: I reckon that's where imposter syndrome comes in. Because you kind of go, well, I love it, I'm passionate about it. I want it - like, I crave it when I'm not doing it. And they're surely clear signs right? That that's what you should be doing; that you think about it a lot when you're not doing it. But then sometimes, especially like we said in the past, when you've got limited time, you then sit down and and start writing. And then it's hard and it's like what's been hard is getting to this place where I can sit down and do this. And I'm struggling to get it right. So maybe, maybe this isn't for me - and yet everything else up unto that point tells you that this is what you want to be doing and what you should be doing. So telling yourself you're not rubbish, it's just hard - acknowledging that and then going 'right it is hard, but I'm going to try.'

Hannah: Well, it's, you know, I guess it's back to that little piece of advice that we talked about that my tutor gave me, which is 300 words a day, will eventually become a novel. If you can get it down into like, bite size, manageable chunks. You know, talking as people who don't have a huge amount of time, and I imagine anybody listening doesn't have a huge amount of time, or not as much time as they would perhaps like, yeah, little manageable chunks. Oh, and actually, I'll tell you who said they write like this: Charlie Brooker said that he writes in 20 minute bursts. So he puts a timer on his phone for 20 minutes, so that he knows that in those 20 minutes, he's got to focus, but he knows there is an endpoint. And when the 20 minutes is up, he can stop. And he can have a cup of tea and go for a walk down the garden, and then come back and do another burst. And it's manageable. 

Debs: Love that. 

Hannah:  So instead of having this open ended expanse of time, which is what sometimes I think frightens me, because, say for example, I've got like a two hour window, and then I'm like ‘THIS IS IT, THIS IS MY TWO HOUR WINDOW!’ - I spook myself.

Debs: I think one of my issues, as well, is that in my life, and in my day job, I guess I have to be reactive to whatever's put in front of me. And you're kind of given it and you have to do it. So then being given a large chunk of time, and a blank page is proactive in the way that you say having all of that kind of time in front of you can somehow almost be a bit overwhelming. Being given the choice to write anything, for me, it's a bit overwhelming. It's like, if I was given a stimulus, I'd probably prefer it. Yeah, and a time limit, you know, write 500 words on this. I think it's just because of the way that the working life has formed my behaviors.

Hannah:  Oh, yeah, totally. And then you have to do a full mental shift away from your working brain, to your writing, creative brain. And it's not really necessarily succinct to do that.

Debs: I get really excited about an idea. And it's like, there's a difference between flirting with someone and having a full committed relationship with them. And I think it's the same with ideas, you have to go, this is the one I'm going to run with. But then while you're running with that idea, or in that relationship, you know, there are other ideas that you flirt with. And that can distract you from that one that you're committing yourself to. Yes, do you ever get that? You're like, Oh, well, that is better than the one that I'm now in a relationship with and who's like, facing me with all these problems and like farting in front of me? Do you know I mean, it's like a hot new idea who I keep kind of glancing at, exchanging eye contact with, shiny and new.

Hannah:  I am so so bad for that. I do that all the time. And I'm terrible. I'm a cheater. And I think I said in the last episode, if something starts to feel hard, and it's not as sort of like, sparky, as it was, I'm like, Oh, I should probably go over that with that other idea.

Debs:  Yeah! But then you've got to know that that other idea is also gonna fart in front of you if you commit to it. What if that idea over there is the one that would do really well, and would get published? And I'm spending all my time on this one? Yeah. That's a real dilemma, isn't it? Another thing that makes writing hard is that you can put all of that work into it. And I guess it's fear of failure. It might not go anywhere.

Hannah: Yeah, it's such a leap of faith. Yeah, unless you're going to self publish everything that you ever write - which is really great way, actually, sometimes of getting words out into the world - or put everything that you've ever written on a blog, then you don't have any control over whether or not this thing that you've grafted at actually finds a place in the world. And that's a bit... that's kind of soul destroying, going into it. You know, the idea of getting to the end of this project, and then it never ever finding a place in the world, which, you know, there's a strong chance that that will happen. I mean, it's a really hard starting point, because, like, how do you motivate yourself to do the work, if you've got no guarantees?

Debs: It's a really, really tough one. And I'm sure that it crosses everyone's minds because you're investing unpaid precious time on something. Yeah. I mean, of course, you're doing it because you love it. You know, if you're, if you're doing something creative, it's got to be feeding your soul as well. 

Hannah: Yeah.

Debs: But is it gonna feed your children?

Hannah:  Well, currently, no! I think as well: what is the definition of success? Do we only get to be proud of our writing catalogue If we can literally walk into Waterstones and take it off the bookshelf? Because if that's the only marker of success, there's a hell of a lot of us who may never get to that place, but it doesn't mean that what we're working on isn't great, or doesn't have a place. Then it's kind of like, how do you hold on to your sense of self esteem about what you write? Because we place so much emphasis on the tangible results? 

Debs: Yeah, tangible results.

Hannah: It's a big bugbear of mine.

Debs:  I have no answer to that. But, absolutely, especially when it's something that can take so long to do, you know that there'll be those moments of wondering if it's all worth it? But I guess you just have to hope, you have to try, and you have to hope  - because people do do it. People get published in the end. Yeah, you've just got to complete the thing, I guess. It's taking one step at a time, isn't it? It's going, well, I'm gonna finish this first and then worry about whether it was worth it later.

Hannah: There's a good quote from Leigh Bardugo: "I wish I'd known that the hard days, the days when you struggle, or the work feels false or frustrating are not signs that you're not up to the task or that you're on the wrong path. They're actually just signs that you're trying to do something bigger and more challenging than you've ever done before."

Debs:  Nice, very true. So, Neil Gaiman said: "This is how you do it: you sit down at the keyboard, and you put one word after another until it's done. It's that easy. And that hard."

Hannah: Oh, Neil... 

Debs:  Nice one, Neil, you should be a writer! So this is the last episode of Series One of The Write Off Podcast. I have had a blast so far. Thank you, Hannah. 

Hannah:  Well, me too, Debs. 

Debs: You know, it's been so great to talk about writing, to the point where now I'm keen to go off and do some.

Hannah: Oh, yeah. Well, it's twofold isn't it? If you want to procrastinate over writing, then start a podcast about writing!

Debs: Exactly... 

Hannah: But at the same time, talking about writing doesn't half make you want to go and get on with it.

Debs: I have found it very inspirational. And, yeah, I'm very much looking forward to actually getting some writing done. 

Hannah: Yeah, because writing is hard…

Debs: Writing is hard... And we'll look forward to chatting more in series two. We hope that you'll join us. 

Hannah:  And, in the meantime, good luck with your writing.

Debs: Yeah, absolutely. Good luck with your writing.

Hannah:  If you have enjoyed today's episode, then please do subscribe rate and review us. It helps people to find us and every listen and download to our little podcast really does make a difference, and we really do appreciate it.